The Fire Protection Podcast: Episode #74 – The Lithium-Ion Battery Fire Crisis: Amerex’s Strategies for Protection and Prevention

ur on lithium batteries there. We've also been to NFPA, all three FEDs, Waste Expo, and Min Expo in the last six months. We've been all over the trade show circuit.

Drew Slocum: So, you spoke at Calaf about lithium-ion batteries? What was that presentation about?

Jamie Knowles: We've taken a leadership position on that topic, focusing on safety, awareness, and education around lithium batteries and fire extinguishers. There are products on the market claiming to be suitable for those fires, but frankly, they're not listed for it. In this country, fire extinguishers must be listed by Underwriters Laboratories and rated for the types of fires they'll put out. Lithium batteries present all four classes of fire – A, B, C, and D. They're self-propagating and very dangerous.

Our message is that any portable fire extinguisher used on lithium batteries must have a Class C rating, meaning it's been tested up to 100,000 volts. This ensures the user won't get shocked. With lithium batteries, we don't know when the charge will discharge, so safety is crucial.

We're on a bit of a campaign about this. Ben issued a letter to all our distributors, and we have a technical bulletin. I'm also speaking at different conferences about it.

Drew Slocum: I was just at a conference in New York, and the FDNY has been doing a good job with this. It's amazing how many fires they have with lithium-ion batteries, mainly e-bikes and people charging them illegally. There's no great way to put out these fires now. I was impressed with the letter, Ben. It's important to try to make things right with the industry and the public. We can't be using just any extinguishers for batteries.

Ben Pitts: We've gotten a lot of positive feedback on the letter. We want to keep our customers and industry stakeholders updated on what Amerex is doing to address lithium-ion battery fires. We wanted to provide a public service announcement that some products being marketed don't do the job and are dangerous. They don't have the range or ratings needed, putting the user in harm's way. We felt it was time to get that message out there.

Drew Slocum: We need more of that to inform the public, especially about the fire extinguishers available to them in an emergency.

Jamie Knowles: The message isn't to not use fire extinguishers, but to use them the right way. As lithium-ion batteries go into thermal runaway, they'll have projectile fires, spraying sparks and flames. This can catch everything around them on fire. Even though we're not fighting the battery fire itself, the extinguishers need to be equipped to fight the surrounding fires. The battery will eventually run out of power.

Ben Pitts: In testing at our facility, projectiles have traveled 15 feet or more. The range of at least one product I'm referring to is only 10 to 12 feet, putting the user in harm's way.

Drew Slocum: I'm trying to get the hazmat director at FDNY to come on the podcast. They're running into this head-on, and there's no solution. Manufacturers can say what they want, but you basically have to dump these batteries in water, and even then, they're still burning underwater.

Ben Pitts: We've tested different agents and found that nothing works better than deionized water. We're continuing to research, but that's where we are now. We're developing a product with the necessary ratings and range, whether the agent is deionized water or a mix of water and something else.

Drew Slocum: A few years ago, I had William on the podcast to talk about your vehicle side lithium gas detection unit. Is that becoming more popular with electric vehicle conversions?

Ben Pitts: Absolutely. We have our transit marketing and sales team here today, and electric vehicles are driving the demand for gas detection and fire suppression. We identified a threat to our transit bus business if fire suppression systems don't put out electric vehicle fires. Will buses and transit authorities still invest in them? So far, the answer is yes because there are still other fire hazards on the bus. But the early warning system you mentioned is becoming very popular. Bus manufacturers like New Flyer, Motor Coach, and Gillig are interested. Jamie can speak more about how the product works.

Jamie Knowles: As we travel to these trade shows, we see that all industries are embracing electric vehicles. At the mine expo, they had a 240-ton electric haul truck that charges in 20 minutes.

We have a lot of experience in the transit business, and our gas detection system is aptly described as an early warning system. We detect gas at the earliest stages, giving the driver enough time to pull over, get everyone off the bus, and egress to a safe place before an event happens. This is a big deal for us, and we're proud of it.

When you move into other industries, they have different concerns. At the Waste Expo, the big subject was hazardous material and how people dispose of batteries. They end up in the garbage truck, get compacted, and can start a fire. The only thing the driver can do is dump the garbage in the street, which can cause damage and more hazards.

Jamie Knowles: There's no other option. There's no fire suppression system big enough for that compartment. The result is a big fire that damages the street. These garbage truck companies are getting bills from HOAs because someone threw away a battery they shouldn't have.

I think a lot of the public is still unaware of the potential hazards of the lithium-ion batteries in their pockets, closets, and garages. I gave a presentation at the Oregon State Association where I showed a video with a 15-second snippet of people with fire shooting out of their pants. I stopped the video and asked how many people wanted to remove something from their pockets, and 25 people stood up.

Awareness is our biggest task. We need to make sure everyone knows what these batteries are capable of, how to prevent thermal runaway, and the importance of using the right equipment and charging them in a safe place. I tell everyone that steel and concrete are your friends. If you have an electric vehicle, charge it in a place made of steel and concrete or outside, away from flammable materials.

We all have portable drills with lithium-ion batteries in our homes. I probably have 12. Educating the public is key.

Drew Slocum: The CEO of Viking, James, was doing construction at his house, and it was the cordless drills that caught fire. Luckily, they got out. He speaks about it a lot now.

Jamie Knowles: The other two shows I went to were the National Association of State Fire Marshals and the NFPA. Each show has a different perspective. Waste Expo is all about the garbage, and mine expo is all about the haul trucks. But the State Fire Marshals Association is all about leadership and seeking guidance to keep the public safe. I found a real thirst for information on this subject, which was comforting.

At NFPA, the discussions were about how to implement building codes around these hazards. It's a deep discussion, from manufacturing to household use, and how to incorporate those into the fire code appropriately.

I was at NFPA 10, and there were 63 public inputs just for lithium batteries, but not enough information to implement them. We're still at the beginning of this, and what we know today will evolve.

Drew Slocum: You have all these energy storage systems, even residential ones like the Tesla power walls. They're a good manufacturer, but things still go wrong. This isn't going away, and if you can't put out the fire, we need to detect it somehow, whether through software or gas detection.

Jamie Knowles: Gas detection is the earliest warning.

Ben Pitts: The next step is tying gas detection into a communication network. If you have a transit bus depot with many buses lined up and charging, and one starts thermal runaway, you want to know immediately so someone can get there and move the bus.

Jamie Knowles: It's not always during use that these batteries fail; it's often after use. When those buses are sitting on the ready line or the haul trucks are lined up, those situations are dangerous. They run them hot for a few hours, and then after that, that's when the failure happens.

Drew Slocum: Jamie, I had you on the podcast after COVID, right? We were talking about the restaurant industry. I know your role has transitioned a bit away from that, but have you seen any changes in the last two years?

Jamie Knowles: Kitchen systems are in my DNA. I've been doing that since I was in the Navy in the early nineties. I'll always be plugged into that side of the business. The big topic right now is energy-efficient appliances. As the energy efficiency increases, so does the difficulty of fire suppression. The appliance becomes hotter as it becomes more energy-efficient. The higher the Energy Star efficiency, the harder the UL 100 fire is to put out.

In some cases, those appliances heat up and create such a big fire so quickly that you can't reach the two-minute pre-burn prescribed by UL. We're facing challenges in figuring out how to tackle these newer, highly efficient appliances and get the appropriate fire suppression and testing done.

The other evolving area is electric detection. Ten years ago, there was virtually no electric detection in kitchens, but now there's quite a bit. We have our Strike product, which has been on the market for almost ten years. CaptiveAire has electric detection. Kidde uses electric in places like In-N-Out Burger.

The barrier to entry is cost, which matters in the food space. Right now, maybe 10-15% of the market is excited about electric detection and data collection. The other 85% say it's too expensive.

But we know electric detection is the future. It gives you capabilities that mechanical detection doesn't, like talking to building control systems. You can use different styles of detectors for better response times and data collection. Amerex has patience in this space and is allowing us to build for the future.

Drew Slocum: The fusible links go away, right? You still have to do the inspection, obviously.

Jamie Knowles: If we look up that Grinnell badge of 1850, I'm pretty sure he's the one who invented the fusible link. I think we're past that technology now. It's super reliable and inexpensive, which is why everyone uses it. But it's not fast or electronic, so you can't record data or send signals in different ways.

Ben Pitts: We're keeping Jamie close to that business. In terms of restaurant and food service trends, safety is always number one, whether it's food safety, employee safety, or customer safety. Take-away food continues to grow, so there's more automation and flexibility in kitchen design. You need fire protection that can adapt to appliances being moved around.

Food safety is often taken for granted until something like the E. coli outbreak at a major fast food chain this week happens. Safety, flexibility, and design are key. US-based restaurant and hotel chains continue to expand internationally, so suppliers need to stay on top of regulations in those countries.

Labor is another obvious issue. Everyone's struggling, which makes automation and efficiency even more important.

Jamie Knowles: Pushing the UL 300 standard around the world is also important. Countries that adopt it immediately see much safer food service facilities. It also makes it easier for US companies to compete. We have a much higher level of fire suppression standards than many other countries. When selling in countries where UL 300 isn't required, it's an uneven playing field. We try to push that UL 300 standard globally.

Drew Slocum: It's still a dangerous place.

Jamie Knowles: Wasn't it back in the seventies that the NFPA restaurant standard came out?

Jamie Knowles: The new UL 300 standard came in '94, along with NFPA 17A and improvements in NFPA 96.

Drew Slocum: That was a big change. Most fires were happening, and probably still happen, in kitchen settings.

Jamie Knowles: The systems in the eighties wouldn't pass the UL 300 test in the early nineties. The ones that did pass had to use five times more agent. We literally got five times as much fire protection in kitchens in '94 than before.

Drew Slocum: Ben, back to your point about efficiency and labor, I have to give you guys credit. I don't have a newer extinguisher with me...

Ben Pitts: I like the product plug.

Drew Slocum: This is an old one from 2007. I wanted to bring it up because they have Amerex extinguishers in the office. I was curious if any had a QR code. You guys came out with those two-plus years ago. Inspect Point jumped right on that because there's so much data in a tiny QR code. It makes things so much easier for service technicians and fire extinguisher inspectors.

This Amerex has the old barcodes. With the new QR code, you embed the date of the cylinder, which is critical for the 12-year hydro test. This one's from 2007, so it obviously hasn't had a hydro in 2019. It's five years past the date. How would you know that? You need data records, and the QR code helps tremendously with the six-year, the annual, and the 12-year hydro. You can see every extinguisher you service and know when you have a hydro due, whereas most people are doing swap-outs now.

Jamie Knowles: The alternative is the stamp on the bottom of the cylinder with the date. That's great for a technician to check, but you can't plan around it.

If you scan the QR code, it goes into the Inspect Point program, and you can look at a particular account and see how many six-year and 12-year hydro tests are due. You can prepare beforehand and tell the customer how many they have. You can bring hydro-tested units or sell them new ones. You can plan before you get there, which is critical. Customers expect service providers to know this information and help them budget.

Drew Slocum: Shout out to Albany Fire Extinguisher in upstate New York. They've utilized your QR code technology and given us feedback. They know exactly what's happening for the day before the truck leaves, including the five-year tests for water and CO2 extinguishers. That data is powerful.

Ben Pitts: We'll be emphasizing that more and more going forward. I feel it's underutilized by our distributor tech base right now.

Jamie Knowles: I'm lucky to work for a company that often jumps on opportunities to lead.

Drew Slocum: Last question before we wrap up. I saw this extinguisher while walking through the office today. What's the most famous place you've seen the Amerex diamond? I see it in movies. Ben, you first.

Ben Pitts: We had a contest where customers and the public submitted photos. I'll tell you a personal story and then one from the contest.

When my daughter was a junior in high school, we were on college tours in Los Angeles and visited USC. I'd always wanted to go there. I have family who went there – varsity lettermen in basketball and track. We were in the athletic Hall of Fame building, which is like a museum, and they even had O.J. Simpson's Heisman Trophy. I looked over, and there was an Amerex fire extinguisher with the diamond shining proudly. That was cool.

One photo submitted to our contest was from the Muscle Shoals recording studio in North Alabama. It was really popular in the late sixties and early seventies. You wouldn't believe the artists who recorded there: Wilson Pickett, Aretha Franklin, Elton John, Duane Allman, and the Rolling Stones. Amerex fire extinguishers are still protecting that studio.

Jamie Knowles: Those are good ones. Muscle Shoals is very cool. We have 20 systems in Burj Khalifa in Dubai, the tallest building in the world. We protect 20 of the tallest kitchens you can find.

My favorite picture from the contest was taken from the back of a fire van. There's a pile of Amerex extinguishers ready to be recharged, and right in front is a herd of mountain goats checking them out. He took that picture in Glacier National Park. It was really cool to see that.

Our distributors do a nice job of sending us pictures when they find them in cool places. We keep a collection and put them in our Inside the Diamond magazine.

Drew Slocum: You have to have fun with it.

Ben Pitts: Amerex makes a good product. We try to make 14,000-15,000 extinguishers a day, but it's our distributor partners who get our products into those places. Hats off to them for what they do every day.

Jamie Knowles: They're out there fighting the good fight every day, in all locations, including those that are inhospitable, all the way up to these really cool places.

Drew Slocum: I'm glad you guys came on today. We covered a few topics, and it was great to catch up. I guess everyone knows where to find you, but feel free to give a quick plug.

Jamie Knowles: Amerexfire.com is our website. I'm on all the socials; it's Jamie Chuck Fire. I'm happy to engage and answer any questions.

Ben Pitts: Just use the QR code. It's right there.

Drew Slocum: I know that for a fact. Ben, Jamie, thanks for coming on. Have a great holiday season.

Jamie Knowles: Enjoy what you do, Drew. Thank you.

Drew Slocum: Take care. This has been episode 74 of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. I want to thank Jamie and Ben for coming on to talk about a variety of issues, mainly lithium-ion battery fires. I want to do a deeper dive into that in 2025. Thanks for listening and subscribing, and here's to a great 2025.