The Fire Protection Podcast: Episode #26 – Healthcare Fire Protection and Facility Management Solutions with Legacy FM

k to fire protection people all over, um, and even some of the facility management people, and, and they see what you’re both doing. Um, it, it’s kind of wild. It’s, it’s taken off so fast.

Lindsey Brackett: (03:02):

That’s really great to hear. We appreciate that feedback. Yeah, we, um, we know we just started doing this just to test it out and see what would happen. Um, and it’s just been, it’s been really great to see the response from the community

Drew Slocum: (03:14):

Now. It, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s really cool to see. So, uh, so let’s, um, I guess give me a little background about yourselves. I, I, I know a little bit about Legacy fm. I know some of the stuff that Josh, you’re doing. Um, uh, whoever wants to go first, feel free.

Joshua Brackett: (03:35):

Um, okay. I’ll start. Lindsay Lindsay’s nodding at me, so we’ll, we’ll go with me first. <laugh>. Um, so, uh, Josh Brackett. Um, I am a Fire protection engineer, uh, by degree by, uh, professional engineering license as well. Um, started out in the fire protection field, uh, engineering field, and, um, through multiple different turns in, in career, uh, ended up landing at a hospital system, um, where I do my full-time job, uh, here in Arkansas at, uh, at Baptist Health System, managing, um, life safety compliance, energy management. I do a lot of process improvement for our facilities team. Um, and then, uh, I’m also the co-founder of Legacy fm. Um, and I’ll let Lindsey talk a little bit about that and, um, sit on a couple of, uh, N F P A committees, do a lot of, um, national work. Um, really just trying to, to do my part to, to better the industry.

Drew Slocum: (04:39):

Oh, that’s great. What N F P A committees here you on.

Joshua Brackett: (04:42):

Oh, man, I knew you were gonna ask that.

Drew Slocum: (04:44):

Ah, that’s all right. We, we can get to it later. That’s, uh,

Joshua Brackett: (04:47):

Means of egress, um, the healthcare code, uh, 99, um, N FPA 72 I TM chapter, uh, N FPA one 10 n FPA one 11. Um, and then I sit on the regulatory affairs committee for as I, and then I’m part of the, um, health care, uh, codes and Standards review committee, um, which is a committee sanctioned by N fpa.

Drew Slocum: (05:15):

Wow.

Joshua Brackett: (05:15):

So two or three <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah,

Drew Slocum: (05:20):

Lindsay.

Lindsey Brackett: (05:21):

Yeah. Yeah. So I probably should’ve gone, I should’ve gone first, because that’s really

Drew Slocum: (05:24):

Tough. <laugh>, you gave them that.

Lindsey Brackett: (05:27):

I, uh, yeah, I didn’t think that went through. I sit on zero <LAUGH> N FPA committees. Uh, but I, I do have an engineering and construction background. Um, I was a structural designer by education and practiced for the first few years of my career. Uh, but one opportunity led to another, um, within the company that I was working for. And I found myself in facilities management. And, um, I, we did a lot of work in healthcare, and I really enjoyed healthcare facilities management. And, uh, this idea of education and training was really intriguing to me because, um, you just, you see the impact that you have, you know, in engineering and construction, at least for me anyway, it was difficult to see what impact I was having until it was almost, you know, built and then you kind of say goodbye to the building, and you might drive past it on the highway if you’re lucky.

(06:24)
But, um, I was, I was really missing that, that bigger meaning and purpose and what started out as the legacy project a couple of years ago, which is really connecting the aging generation that’s looking to retire, or is on their second or third, uh, retirement <laugh>. Yeah. They, um, connecting them with the younger generation. You know, we just don’t have enough skilled labors coming into the industry, and there’s a huge mass exodus of just knowledge and expertise leaving the industry. And we just got sick of hearing about it. Sure. And we, um, we started out a project to connect the aging generation with the, the entering one. And, uh, I sent on a couple of different boards, primarily focused on getting the younger generation plugged into the facilities management world. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I prefer to work, you know, in, in healthcare facilities management. It’s near and dear to my heart just because the people that run our hospitals are just Oh, yeah. Compassionate, amazing, kind, giving souls, and I just wanna help them do more amazing work. But, um, you know, I, I live in facilities management, um, traveled around the world to talk to different people that are practitioners in the same industry. So it’s been a big passion of mine. And Josh have had a lot. Josh and I have had a lot of fun since we started.

Joshua Brackett: (07:51):

A lot of fun.

Lindsey Brackett: (07:52):

<laugh>.

Drew Slocum: (07:53):

No, that’s great. I mean, that’s a, it’s a huge, and just a fire protection, not only in fitness facility management, but there’s, there’s a big issue with, uh, the retiring set of knowledge. Um, and how do you get that over? And I, there’s not a, a great way that’s happening in, in, in the fire protection community right now. So I’m, I’m, I’m really interested to see, I guess you can start by both explaining what, what is legacy fm and obviously you’ve kind of explained why, why you started it. So what do you actually do? Sure. I’m,

Joshua Brackett: (08:28):

That’s a Lindsay one for sure. <laugh>. Yeah, definitely.

Lindsey Brackett: (08:31):

Yeah. So we, um, we tell people that we are not in the, the education and training business, we’re in the business of empowerment. And it just happens that education is the means in which we empower other people. And, and the reason why we choose that word empower is because, you know, really to us, empowerment means to increase the ability and capacity of an individual or a group of people to drive meaningful outcomes. You know, I think education and training alone isn’t enough. And so we, we really think about what does it take to be, uh, an engineer or a technician holistically, including soft skills. And we build, you know, custom training, specialized education programs for those skill sets mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and we work a lot with, uh, healthcare systems and building competency programs and education programs for their technician up to their leadership. And obviously a lot of that, uh, content is focused on codes, regulatory compliance, and absolutely life safety. The fire protection is a huge part of what we do. Uh, but yeah, we build everything from assessments that connect job descriptions to competencies, but also the actual education and training content itself.

Joshua Brackett: (09:50):

Yeah. Very much. It’s, uh, it’s, I mean, it’s one of the, it’s one of the things that, just to talk more about it, I mean, we could talk about it forever, right? But, um, you know, we really try to, to fight, um, the stereotypical training of training to check a box, right? I mean, we, we, we fight against that. We try to use, um, uh, web-based training, classroom training, field training. You can’t replace that. Even, even with covid, you can’t replace it, right. Um, we’ve, so we’re really trying to push the boundaries of that and bring in new things like virtual, uh, reality walkthroughs and scenario, uh, branching scenario training, um, as well, you know, just to, um, to really, really keep growing our industry.

Drew Slocum: (10:41):

Right? Yeah. I, I, I know in, in fire protection, there’s a, there’s a little bit of a, I don’t know, I don’t think it’s a problem, but, you know, t’s the only certification out there. I think, um, there’s another one making, it’s, uh, making, it’s, it’s upcoming, but t’s it’s a great certification program, but there’s, it’s the only one really that’s recognized everywhere. It’s, yeah. And just the whole process of it, um, is great, you know, take the exam, but there’s no, there’s no like, uh, you know, in-person learning with that, you know, and we’re, we’re trying to, in the, I mean, a New York organization, as many people know, we’re trying to create a, a technician training, um, with kind of a combo of both, because, you know, yes. The facility management engineers, the fire protection technicians out there, they have different skillsets like you said before, so,

Joshua Brackett: (11:40):

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, and that’s, you know, speaking about NICE e I mean, I’ll, I’ll just say I think nice. It’s great, right? But, but it’s not the, it’s not the end all be all. Um, and, uh, you, I mean, I, I like to use the example of just because I’m a pe um, does not mean that I’m a great fire protection engineer, right? Right. It means that I was smart enough to study and have study skills and find resources to pass a test. Yeah. You know, and, you know, that’s something that, um, I think we as a, we as an industry in general, and really the education industry in general, um, undervalues is, is, uh, hands-on knowledge. I mean, you can’t, you can’t replace somebody that has 40 years of experience working in a facility or 40 years of experience, uh, working on a fire protection system. I mean, I don’t care if he has a nice set. I don’t care if he’s nice at four or if he’s a professional engineer or not. Right. Um, there’s knowledge there that has to be harnessed because others simply don’t have it.

Drew Slocum: (12:44):

Sure. Yeah. And, and there seems to be a lot, a, a bit more in the last few years of, uh, just onsite training centers. You know, they’re trying to, you know, general air’s got a great one. Um, you know, Viking created a state-of-the-art one, and that’s more on the, in the sprinkler side of life. But, um, I, I think it needs to continue and hopefully, hopefully it does.

Lindsey Brackett: (13:07):

Yeah. I think it really, the best way that people learn, and there’s, there’s scientific studies behind this, but, you know, reading and being, and reading information, and even certifications to an extent, those, those aren’t enough learning, true learning and retention happens when you’re able to apply that knowledge immediately and practically. And I think the more hands-on training centers that we have, and more truly on the job training that we have, that’s what’s going to increase in retention rates and then also get employees engaged, uh, because now they truly understand why what they do matters and, and why, you know, if they, if they make a decision, like what does that mean and what are the effects of that? And you really can’t do that through the computer. Um, you’re, at least, you’re limited, and you can’t do that through a single test or through reading a book. You’ve gotta actually do it with your hands and see it happen and make mistakes. So I, I love to see this trend of on the job training and these training centers that are popping up.

Drew Slocum: (14:09):

Yeah. I remember one of the, the best, uh, uh, sprinkler, you know, I actually, a lot of the idea from Inspect point, you know, the software platform that we have came out of actually, uh, I was in a, a Tyco or JCI training center, and the idea kind of spurred some of them came out of that, but they, they did this thing one time where, you know, you did all the hands on training, but, uh, like a half a day of it was just troubleshooting. But they made it fun. And, uh, I learned more from that troubleshooting session. Uh, you know, they put like a, a rubber chicken in a, in a dry pipe valve, and

Joshua Brackett: (14:50):

That’s,

Drew Slocum: (14:52):

And you had a trouble. And it was just, they made fun. They, you know, and you, you’re never gonna learn that in a book. You’re never even just in a presentation in front of a, a valve room. Um, you need to, you know, they brought up everybody and did the hands on training. So I think, you know, they needed to be more of that throughout all the industries. So

Joshua Brackett: (15:11):

I, no, I agree. And I, I really think it needs to carry over to, to other aspects of the industries as well, like engineers. I mean, one, one thing that, um, um, I’ve been very blessed in my career to be on the engineering side and the contractor side and the, the owner side, um, and see all three different sides of it. And, and, you know, man, there’s, I know Drew, you and I have talked about it a couple of times, right? There’s, there’s some pretty major gaps, um, in, in how things are done. And I think pointing out those gaps and, and talking about it is how we collectively work together to solve the problem,

Drew Slocum: (15:47):

Right? Yeah. Yeah. It kinda goes into, uh, uh, little one of the next points I, I, uh, on my list here is how do you, how do you, I know you’re in the facility management side now, and we have a lot of contractors that listen into the, the, the podcast here. How do, how do you, how do you select a partner to bring Indy for <laugh>? Cause Yeah, I know it’s a tough question, but, um, you know, there’s a lot of criteria. Obviously

Joshua Brackett: (16:16):

That’s a loaded question, Andrew. Andrew. So, um,

Drew Slocum: (16:18):

That’s why I’m here,

Joshua Brackett: (16:20):

Not schedule enough time <laugh>. No. So, I mean, I’ll tell you the right way, right? I mean, we, we can talk through the right way. There’s low bid, in my opinion. Um, you know, and I, and that’s just me speaking for myself. Uh, you know, I’d love to hear feedback from, from the audience. Um, but low bid won’t get you, it, uh, you as an owner, the owner at the end of the day, is responsible for knowing what the requirements are and the systems, um, and the partner, right? The, the, the contractors, the contractors that I like, the ones that I hire are the ones that push back, the ones that say, this is against code, this isn’t right. Or, show me where in the code this is. Right? And, and, and, you know, I’ll, I’ll tell owners every day, um, you know, my, my, my peers and counterparts in, in the facility side, um, you know, if you are not doing that, if you’re just doing it to check a box, you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.

(17:17)
And I don’t think you should be in your job. Right? You know, so we ha we are in our jobs to do the hard things right there. It’s not, there’s a reason that we have created, um, you know, a very safe, uh, physical environment for patients and occupants and healthcare. Um, and really in general, thanks to, thanks to, you know, codes and standards, right? I mean, you don’t hear of, if you look at all the trends of, of fire deaths in the United States, you know, we’re not zero, but we have significantly decreased it, right? Um, because of the codes and standards that we’ve implemented, right? So, but if we’re not properly testing those codes and standards, if we’re not challenging ourselves, if we’re not, um, doing the right thing for the occupant, if you are not willing to, you know, if it, I like to put it back on, on, on, uh, on the contractors, you know, if, if, if your family member was in, in a hospital, right? And you know that you won the I T M project, uh, to do the test inspect for sprinkler or firearm low bid, um, and you come in and, and don’t do everything that’s required by N FPA 25, let’s say, um, how willing are you to put your, your family member in that hospital?

Drew Slocum: (18:38):

Sure.

Joshua Brackett: (18:38):

I mean, you know, that changes things, right? Oh, yeah. I mean, that’s, and that’s what we should be pushing, um, as an industry. And I know there’s, there’s pushback of, of, well, owners, owners are looking for low bid and, and stuff like that. Yeah, you’re right. They are. Um, and I know companies still have to make money, but, um, you, that’s where we have to fight, in my opinion. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (19:01):

I almost put it in, um, I actually created this recently where, you know, you have low bid, then you have a partner, but then there’s a champion out there who, who can champion your project, um, to go beyond just being a, just a standard partner, you know, or, or vendor or contractor. So, um, it’s tough. It’s tough to find that, uh, you know.

Lindsey Brackett: (19:25):

Yeah. I mean, I’ve, I’ve heard the comparison of com a commodity versus a partner. Yep. Right? And those are the, the two different ends of the spectrum. And you can have a commodity, you know, a Walmart, target, big box store. I wouldn’t even, maybe not even target <laugh> Target, uh, but you know, you can have like the big box version, and you get what you get, and you know that that can be fine and in certain situations. But if you’re looking for a partner, that’s, that’s not a commodity, right?

Joshua Brackett: (19:54):

It’s not, no. And it, and its, it’s hard. I mean, you know, Lindsay and I are our business owners as well, right? So, so we can speak to this, this side of things. We’re not contractors out there doing TM work, but we’ve also, we have turned away clients that don’t fit our, our profile that say, here’s what I want you to develop. And it’s, and the reason we’re doing it is because we want to check a box on education and training, and we have flat out outside, you know what? Thank you, but no thank you. That’s not for us. Sure. Right? That’s not what, that’s not what our purpose is, and that’s not what we’re here to do. Um, and that’s hard, that’s hard as a business owner to make that, that kind of decision. But, but that’s how you find partners. That’s how you build a revolution in the industry. Um, and, and that’s what we’re here to do, right, is, I mean, our, our goal is to, to keep trying to push the industry forward and find those partners, those people that believe in it, those champions, like you’ve mentioned, drew, you know, that want to drive change.

Drew Slocum: (20:55):

Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s, uh, it, it’s important to, to keep pushing that way. Now, now I, I know you’re both involved in, in the hospital and healthcare side, and mm-hmm. <affirmative> seems like you focus on that a little bit. It seems like they’ve done a great job. And you said that before, Josh, where they’ve, they’ve done a great job with codes around the healthcare, um, uh, around the healthcare side. And w why do you think it’s, you know, uh, why do you think the codes, I obviously, you know, the codes are so strict there because of, um, you know, because of, you know, how they’re funded, whether it’s nationally and all that, through joint commission and all that. So Yeah. Why is that such a sector versus the rest of every other building that we’re in, you know? Oh,

Lindsey Brackett: (21:45):

Well, and, and defend place. I mean, it, it’s not, it’s not just the regulatory side, but I mean, you gotta think about the nature of the occupant independent place. I mean, that just, it’s just different, you know, everything is just so different in healthcare.

Joshua Brackett: (21:57):

Yeah. And, and, you know, I like to tell people, because there’s only a few defendant place occupancies, um, you know, primarily, uh, hospitals and prisons, right? Yeah. And, and if you think about it, a lot of ways they’re, they’re similar. So, you know, I’m not saying hospitals or prisons, but, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> from a, from a protection of occupants perspective, right? It’s as soon as, as soon as the occupants, whether they are patients, whether they are family members, whatever, when they enter that hospital, they are under our care. They are now, um, you know, there are, there are patients that we have that are deemed incapable of self-preservation, right? It is our job and our duty to protect them. And that goes beyond the doctors and nurses that are doing the work on them. That goes to facilities, you know, and IT, and facilities is a very, um, uh, unrecognized, um, role and department, right?

(22:52)
And that’s, you know, the, the people, the people that work in facilities and environmental services and, and all of these support services departments, um, they don’t get the recognition. I mean, especially like through this covid, through Covid and all of that, I mean, you’ve seen thousands and thousands of posts of doctors and nurses and, you know, Lindsay, and I’ve really been trying to push, Hey, here’s, here’s the people working behind the scenes. We manage millions and millions of dollars of assets to provide the safety and protection for everybody else to do their job, right? So, um, got off on a tangent there. Sorry, that’ll happen a few times there.

Drew Slocum: (23:32):

No, no, that’s good.

Joshua Brackett: (23:33):

But, um, <laugh>, yeah, I, I’ve got, I’ve got a few soap boxes, and you hit on one. Um, so, you know, one of the, one of the things, drew honestly, is, is I’ll say this, healthcare is better than other industries, but healthcare is still not what I would say. Great. Um, and I’m not afraid to say that I’m not afraid to, to challenge facilities to do better. Um, it, it’s one of those that it, it is, uh, we’re better because we are mandated by C M s, uh, from a funding perspective. And yes, they can cut our funding, and yes, they can hurt us, um, from that perspective. But even Joint Commission, D M V, joint Commission, h a, whatever, there, those are the accrediting organizations that CMS says, Hey, you guys can help us, uh, make sure that these hospitals are in compliance to what is called the condition of participations for, uh, condition of participation for, um, healthcare facilities to receive Medicare and Medicaid funding.

(24:40)
Right? So, but all Joint Commission does is develop this kind of checklist, right? Yes. Of here’s the common things to check. And, and I’ll tell you, I have been, I have followed up after surveyors a few months, right after they’ve been there, where a facility had zero findings on, on fire alarm. And I have walked in, looked at the fire alarm program, and identified literally loops and entire circuits of failed devices as of inaccurate programming, um, that isn’t caught, because all we’re doing is checking a box. Yes. We’re not doing what needs to be done. Yes. And, you know, that’s the point. That’s exactly why we do what we do, um, is the whole point of what we do, especially in healthcare, is protect the people, Bob. And that’s our duty. You know, that’s what we signed up for. And, you know, if we’re not doing that, then it’s our job to fight for it.

Drew Slocum: (25:44):

Yeah. I, I, um, uh, you know, the joint commission thing, and, and I, I got, you know, I was in more on the install side of, of sprinkler and suppression and a little bit in fire alarm before, and, um, it, it, you know, we have a software platform that that helps out with of all the different codes out there, but it, it keeps coming back on the joint

Joshua Brackett: (26:07):

Commissions awesome software platform.

Drew Slocum: (26:08):

Oh, thank you, <laugh>. I can’t, I can’t wait to get fully rolling with it, you know, with, uh, and, and we’re really making a big push on the, uh, healthcare side of things and joint commission’s like the big one. And we, you know, we’re adapting to the others as well. But it, it seems to be all about like the format and the form. I’m like, well, they, everybody’s fully focused on that, because that’s with the officer, and that’s where they’re, you know, they’re getting dinged on at. Right. But, and the weird part about it, it’s a national standard, but then, you know, North Carolina might, or a city in North Carolina might be different than somewhere in Tennessee there, you know, and it’s all over the place when the whole point is doing a, a, a thorough inspection. I know it’s standardized, but it’s not standardized. And that’s what, uh, it bothers me about, about that a little bit, because everybody’s trying to do the right thing, and we get caught in the, the, the concept, like you said, checking boxes and making sure, you know, um, I don’t know, it looks a certain way, you know, I don’t know.

Joshua Brackett: (27:17):

So I, I like to break it down like this, right? Joint commission is, is their job is to help healthcare facilities identify, and they do that through having these kind of standardized tech to go through. And we call that environment of care chapter or, um, life safety chapter or infection control chapter or whatever. And underneath that are elements of performance, right? At the end of the day, every single element of performance from joint commission, every single, uh, physical environment, um, standard from d and v, everything ties back to codes and standards somehow. So if we’re following the codes and standards, then you are gonna meet compliance of, of joint commission, right? And, but the problem is, is that, you know, and I, and I actually did this, this presentation with, with John Hart, uh, from N F P A, um, at Ashe a few weeks ago on the really, kind of like the future of itm, how, where it’s coming for, for high rise buildings and, and NFPA four and integrated testing protocol. Sure. Right? And, and that’s really, that’s really one of the things that, that I, I can say, um, with certainty is, is the biggest.

Drew Slocum: (28:31):

Josh, I got, I got you back here. Sorry about that. I know you were, uh, into it with us on NFPA four and kind of where ITM is heading. Sorry about that little, uh, segue. It’s, uh, you know, you, you, you think all the new, all the new technology with audio equipment’s great, but, you know, hardwired, just, just stick with what, you know.

Joshua Brackett: (28:54):

I get it. No, definitely. Definitely. So, um, yeah, so N FPA four, so I, you know, I was, I was very, very fortunate to present with John Hart with N FPA a, um, at the Ashe Annual, um, this year, the Virtual Ashe Annual. Uh, so it’s actually available on demand, but we did an entire presentation on, uh, really the future of, of I itm and really where it’s going. And this, this is probably one of my biggest passions, um, you know, uh, maybe tied with education and training, honestly, to, to that level. Um, but it, you know, we have to talk about, um, how everything integrates together. Where, where’s where the primary failures are if a sprinkler contractor is testing independently of fire alarm, um, or BS systems are testing independently of fire alarm. And, and I go back to fire alarm because it’s really the web that connects everything together, right?

(29:47)
Right. But all these life safety systems all interconnect now. Um, and that’s where we are missing, that’s our biggest failure, in my opinion, as an industry. Oh, sure. Um, where that programming is and where that is. And, and some, there’s some very simple examples there of tamper switches and water flows, right? Let’s, let’s use those, you know, there are both sprinkler components that have to be, um, tested, you know, let’s two full turns of a, of a valve, right? Of a, um, um, any, any valve. And the tamper switch has to go off, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we have to confirm that in a suit. Um, in a suit, yeah. You gotta wear a suit on your,

Drew Slocum: (30:26):

Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, that’s a question, that’s a, that’s a questionnaire for you later. So,

Joshua Brackett: (30:30):

Uh, and or water flow, right? I mean, how many, how many sprinkler contractors do you know that test water flow by removing the cover and testing the flapper?

Drew Slocum: (30:41):

No, I testing

Joshua Brackett: (30:42):

The actual switch,

Drew Slocum: (30:43):

Right? I, not many. I’m

Joshua Brackett: (30:44):

Telling you, that’s where owners have to stand up and fight back and kick. I mean, I have literally kicked contractors off site because of it,

Drew Slocum: (30:52):

You know? What about, what about the new, what about the new water flow switches where it automatically flips it for you?

Joshua Brackett: (30:58):

Those are cool. I agree. I, I mean, I like them, but, but how do we know, I know

Drew Slocum: (31:04):

<laugh>, I know, right?

Joshua Brackett: (31:05):

That, that, that flapper is working. How do we know that the flapper isn’t damaged? How do we know that there’s not an obstruction? There’s a reason we do these things? Oh, yeah. And, and there are things, you know, in code I am, I’m definitely one to fight. I mean, Lindsay knows that, right? I, no, he’s not. No, it’s very dumb. I’m not combative at all, <laugh>. And, um, but there are things that we need to fight in the code because there isn’t science-based evidence behind it, right? But there are things in the code that there are people way smarter than me that developed and figured out a long time ago. Um, so it’s our job to discern the difference between those two, fight the ones that don’t make sense and, and enforce the ones that do.

Drew Slocum: (31:51):

Now, I, I gotta, uh, you, you brought up a topic of, of, of my contention a little bit, so that you, you, you know, these very smart people created these, you know, rules x amount of years ago, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I want to challenge that here soon because, and I think NFPA’s on it, I’m, I’m, I’m on a little side committee with them to look at it, but, you know, why is it quarterly? A quarterly? Why is it annual and annual? Why not? Why not use data against this? And, you know, we’re, we’re, yes, we’re starting to partner, uh, with them or help them out a little bit and, and data collection on, you know, I think a lot of, there’s a lot of smart people on the code committees. You know, I, I, I sit as a guest on NFPA 25. I’m, I’m, I’m on only one officially technical committee, but, uh, and there’s a lot of bright people on there, but I think a lot of code comes, you know, it’s, it’s different interests out there, but a lot of times it’s pulled out of just their experience in their, in their, in their, uh, careers.

(32:57)
So why don’t we, let’s put data against that, or, you know, and Yes, yes. Um, let’s really power that up. And I, NFPA is trying to wrap their, their hands around it now. Um, but, and I, I, I really hope the industry comes together on that. I honestly do.

Joshua Brackett: (33:16):

Please tell me you’re working with the N FBA a research foundation?

Drew Slocum: (33:19):

I, I am. Yes. We are. No

Joshua Brackett: (33:20):

Way, man. So, okay. So I’m actually doing that as well on the Oh, really? Uh, on the other side. So I know that they’re working with, uh, with the, the, the actual, um, software guys, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> on one, one side of it, but then they’re working with the end users on the other side. So are you working with Bart on

Drew Slocum: (33:38):

It? No, I’m working with, uh, Victoria Hutchinson, who’s actually, yeah, yeah. Victoria. Yeah. Yeah. That is awesome. Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua Brackett: (33:46):

Shout out to Victoria.

Drew Slocum: (33:47):

She’s, I know she’s got, uh, next week, hopefully this, hopefully I can get this launched before, but, uh, S F P E, she’s presenting next Tuesday or Wednesday on the 10th or the 11th of November. So that’s amazing about the whole project. So

Joshua Brackett: (34:01):

That’s really cool. So, um, yeah, that, I mean, I agree. I agree wholeheartedly, right? I mean, in facilities in general, you know, there, there are several codes that allow us to, uh, do what’s called an alternative equipment maintenance strategy, right. A e m plans. And unfortunately, that’s just not permitted on the life safety side. And it’s been, because exactly what you’re saying, somebody just said, oh, well, we have to test, we have to test, uh, mechanical water flow devices quarterly, and we have to test tamper switches valves with tamper switches semi-annually. Uh, we have to do main drains annually. And look, I mean, I, I’m, I’m saying one way or the other, maybe we need to do main drain tests semi-annually. Maybe we need to do it every three years. Sure. I don’t know, because we’re not using the data to be able to determine that. And maybe it’s, you know, we need to do main drain tests, um, quarterly at somebody that has really hard water and a lot of, a lot of sediment, but somewhere else that’s, that has very filtered water. Like, I, I can think of one of my facilities that, that the water quality is just superb. I mean, we have never had any issues with it, right? So why am I having to do it? Yep. So, um, but yeah, that’s a great, that is a very great point. So, but gotta talk offline about that

Drew Slocum: (35:27):

One. Yeah. Yeah. The whole deficiency, man. And, and we have this great platform that captures deficiencies from, from inspections, and you can do a bunch of stuff with it, obviously, historical, and, um, push it out to the customer for, for quotation or, or follow up work. But I, I, it’s a, probably the most powerful, uh, piece of the platform is the deficiency management, which can push, I would love to push it into a CMMS system at some point, and, and hopefully we can, uh, do some stuff down the line, you know?

Joshua Brackett: (35:59):

No, I, and I like that. And I, and I mean, I’ll, and I’ll tell you, drew, I mean, I, I’ve seen several different platforms, um, and, and I really do like, uh, the inspect point platform. It, it, it is really good. Um, um, you know, so it’s one of those, again, it goes back to the owner of don’t just trust whatever platform you’re looking at, right? I mean, and, you know, right? I mean, like, um, I, I really like to dig into the different softwares, um, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we are very, very fortunate, uh, to, to that most of our facilities, we actually have all of our systems fully integrated with our cmms, um, wow. Software. Um, but it has taken us years to accomplish, and that’s part of what we covered in the presentation, John Hart and I, um, in that presentation. Um, and, and, and we’re very, very fortunate, uh, you know, most facilities in general, right? Even outside of healthcare, don’t have a fire protection engineer, don’t have somebody that that’s really owning this process. It’s normally a facilities manager that is, has his hands tied with budget, doesn’t, doesn’t have a comprehensive understanding of fire protection, um, system, the various components and stuff, and the time, right? So, um, we’re pulled a thousand different directions. Yeah. So, you know, it, it, it’s, it’s kind of this, uh, what’s that word? When, when everything kind of just

Drew Slocum: (37:24):

Converges,

Joshua Brackett: (37:25):

Converges, there you go. Yeah. But it all, it all just kind of comes, you know, where all the circumstances, all the stars aligned. There you go. Where all the stars aligned, right? I mean, it’s all the stars, all the stars aligned where, where this, we were able to test this. And, and, uh, I mean, a huge part of it was having a team that was behind it and, and really kind of pushing, pushing the boundaries of, of this. So,

Drew Slocum: (37:51):

No, that, that’s, uh, that, that’s great. You, you did, you, uh, now you did a book with, with Ashe, right? On NFPA four. What? Uh, oh,

Joshua Brackett: (38:02):

Sorry. It’s coming. No, it’s,

Drew Slocum: (38:04):

It’s, oh, sorry. All right. It’s coming. I, I talked to Chris Rowando today. Uh Oh, you did. Awesome. Didn’t dig up any dirt on you. So, uh, boy, oh boy, he had all the good stuff to say. So <laugh>, he

Joshua Brackett: (38:15):

Prob he probably said, oh, that’s scatterbrained fool. That guy <laugh>. So, um, I, you know, I mean, I, I love Drew. I love big ideas. Um, you know, and I love, I’m not afraid, uh, to tackle, tackle huge challenges. And this was one of ’em, right? I mean, it was, I think, when was that August of last year? I did, I did a LinkedIn video, and I said, and I, I showed my mind map of everything on my gold board of, of how everything kind of interconnected with this book. And, um, and I said, look, this book is coming. I said, and, and this is my commitment. This is my public commitment to the world, that I will do whatever it takes to form the committee, to bring the right people together to work with Ash Ashley to figure this out, to get this book out to everybody.

(38:59)
Right? So, um, and, and I’ll say I played a very little part in this. You know, we’ve had a, a phenomenal, uh, group of guys, uh, working on this, this book. And Ashe has supported it a hundred percent. Um, and, and it’s wonderful. You know, we’ve got, we’ve got, um, experts from all over the industry, um, and we actually have a, a, uh, above, above the guys writing the book, um, and girls, guys and girls writing the book. We have, um, an expert review committee of, I mean, incredibly well known names Mike Crowley and, and Bill Ell, uh, and a few others, right? Um, you know, that are gonna look over this book and provide comments and direction as well. And, um, you know, people that I deeply, deeply respect everybody on this committee I deeply respect. So, but it’s one of those, it’s, it’s about that in FPA four and, and how it integrates, the history of it, where it came from, why there was a gap, um, leading through the step-by-step of how, uh, how to build a plan, things to consider, questions to ask.

(40:05)
And then we’re doing a case study of Baptist Health and the steps that we took, you know, we did it early. Um, and again, I was very fortunate it’s the, the right, right place, right time, um, where stars align, right? Of having the right leadership in place to support this endeavor as well. Uh, and, and, uh, you know, I can’t, I can’t say enough about that. Um, and, and how it’s all worked together. And, you know, we talked about some pretty, you know, we had a, we had a, uh, a start this and help it, help us kick it off. And, um, two years in, they became pretty complacent, and we were finding that they were getting sloppy in their work, and we fired them completely and, and, uh, brought in somebody new facility, right? Saying, Hey, here’s everything that we’ve done for the last several years.

(40:57)
We’ve invested $2 million, and we want you to take it over. And that’s hard. Yeah, that’s hard to do. And, um, but it was absolutely the right decision. Um, the book is coming out, um, winter of 2021. Uh, so the first quarter, uh, of next year, I am really pushing for January one. I just re just, uh, just finished. We were on vacation two weeks ago, and I just finished reviewing the, uh, the first, first full draft of it. Um, so, and just we’re adding to it. I mean, it looks like it’s gonna be about a, so I’m pretty excited, man. I really am.

Drew Slocum: (41:42):

No, I’m, uh, I’m excited. I, it, it’s funny that you, uh, you did it. You had some, uh, people from, uh, the hospital I visited a lot in New York Presbyterian. Um, so that’s pretty, pretty, pretty cool stuff. Yeah. Um, uh, quick, uh, so I wanted to, uh, kind of wrap this up in a little bit, um, you know, just to, to talk a little bit more about, uh, the legacy FM and, um, some, some, some of the things you’re doing. Do you have upcoming, do you have anything you want to plug, uh, uh, you know, on a legacy? I’m, I, I know you’re both co-founders, so I’m sure you could talk, you know, talk about it, channel.

Lindsey Brackett: (42:25):

Yeah, so we, we recently announced, um, something that we’re really excited about. We’re still blown away that we get to have this opportunity with ashi, but they, they came to us a few months ago about, uh, partnering on a YouTube channel, and it was about the same time that we were talking about establishing our own YouTube channel, because social media was really our only platform, or sorry, LinkedIn was our only social media platform mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so we hadn’t really thought about, you know, where else we were going to put our content until we started getting questions from executives and managers, and they were saying, you know, this is great, but technicians, they’re not on LinkedIn. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Sure. And, uh, so we started talking about establishing a YouTube channel as she came to us and said, you know, Hey, what do you think about co-branding this YouTube channel? So we’ve, we’ve actually put all of our content that’s been on LinkedIn, and we’re looking for other collaborators in a new series. So it’s been an exciting opportunity for us Yeah. Just to put these videos out there, um, especially for technicians. Sure.

(43:35)
Because oftentimes we come in on a project from the executive level, and really as a, as an, uh, training consultant, that’s a tough place to be in. Mm. Is to come in and say, well, we’re gonna train you on how to do your job, and we’re gonna test you and see if you’re good at it, <laugh>. Right. And that’s, uh, that’s tough. And, um, you know, we have to work through that and navigate, navigate through those, you know, contentious times. But, um, just having free content out there for frontline staff Yes. Or technicians, um, I mean, that’s, that’s why we do what we do, is to have the impact on them. So this is, this is probably the most exciting thing that’s happened for us personally and professionally, is just having this collaboration with Ashe and being able to reach technicians that would, would otherwise not have this, this content. Um, because we, you know, we wanna make it widely accessible, you know, especially for like critical access hospitals or Yes. Um, you know, just people that, that can’t, that don’t have the resources to go to, you know, ASHI conferences or, you know, um, big trade shows and things like that. Sure. This is a way they can get the same content without, um, yes. Without that expense.

Joshua Brackett: (44:54):

And that’s one of the things, yeah. So I want to, I’m gonna give the, the URL here in just a second. Yeah, yeah. Go for it. You know, um, we, you know, this, this, this was huge for, for us because, you know, above all else, what we stand for is getting the education out there, you know, making sure that people have the resources, that there’s no excuse for us as an industry to learn. And, and that’s, you know, drew, I mean, I know you and I have talked about it a couple times of, of kind of how, how I started this. And it was really just, you know, it, I love to do the research, number one. Number two, it’s, it’s why are we not sharing the information that we’ve learned? Right? I mean, everything, every, every video that I’ve done, every video that Lindsay’s done is because we made a mistake or because we learned something.

(45:43)
Right? And if we can get a hundred people doing that, right? A thousand people doing that, 10 people doing that, I don’t care. Right? Then we are making a difference. We are changing the industry. So what, what these videos are are what we’re trying to do. We told Ashe. So we’re not, you know, this is not a, this is not a branding initiative for us. This is not a marketing initiative for us. What we want to do is grow this. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, we want inspect point to start doing videos. We want JCI to start doing videos. We want, we want the industry to reach out and say, Hey, we want to be a part of this. Right? We want to contribute, you know, this isn’t a sales pitch. Sure. This isn’t something, this is doing the right thing for the right reason. Oh. So yeah.

(46:35)
Yeah. Um, so we’re putting all of those videos, like I said, everything that we’ve done is all going to a single place. So, um, that way everybody can access it. I mean, I know, I’ll just tell you, like right now, um, my truck, my truck broke down a few days ago, and Lindsey knows I’ve been on YouTube watching how to fix it. So <laugh>, you know, that’s what you do, right? That’s what you do. So, um, that’s where we wanted to put it was YouTube. So the, the URL for that is youtube.com/user/ashe. Aha. So slash user slash A H e a a.

Drew Slocum: (47:15):

Yeah. I, I’ll put it in the notes too, so whoever’s listening. Oh, cool. Maybe I’ll click on it. Yeah, great. It’s funny you say that. I, I did, uh, probably about three, four, right when I started getting heavily into inspect point, I, I did a bunch of videos myself, um, on different manufacturer’s products out there and how they work. I went to a bunch of different ones out there, and I just wanted a third party. Um, I was, you know, you, you, you see the manufacturer, you see it like, it, you don’t wanna, it’s not sales pitchy, but you learn about, technically about the product. But I almost wanted a third party to talk about it. So I started doing it myself, and I obviously got away from it. So I’m, I’m really enjoying what, what what you’re doing with, with some of that. Um, and I’m glad you’re partnering in, in getting out on YouTube, cuz that’s, that’s a good, that’s a great platform for it.

Joshua Brackett: (48:07):

Definitely. Yeah. So, um, yeah, you know, that’s what we’re looking for. Anybody, you know, we will give our contact information, I think, I’m sure you’ll put it in the the notes as well, but, you know, that’s what we want. We want people to reach out and we want to help, help push this and help grow this. So, um, from a, from a, from a company growth perspective, I mean, legacy FM is, is far beyond what we ever thought it was going to be. I don’t think, I don’t think either of us expected or anticipated being a nationwide company. Um, and, and we’re very, very blessed for that. Um, and you know, we, one of the things that we keep, uh, we keep being asked and, and you know, one of the things that we’ve considered very strongly is, is working with other fire protection companies, the actual test and inspect companies developing custom training programs.

(48:55)
Um, so, you know, one of the things that is, is coming for us is a, is a publicly accessible, um, courses, publicly accessible courses. That’s great. Um, and we’ve got several, several dozen developed and we plan to roll it out, um, first part of next year, maybe, maybe first quarter, uh, of next year. And, um, do it as from multiple different aspects of you can buy an individual course all the way to a, a subscription to be able to access everything. Um, the point is to get it out to people. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, we just never thought that, that never, when we first started this, I don’t think either of us really thought that we’d be where we are today. Um, and, and, um, be able to share all this knowledge and stuff that, that we’ve learned. So, um, you know, we’re, we’re, we just want keep growing in the industry, keep helping promote other companies, uh, that, uh, champions, I, I really like that word. I’m gonna keep using

Drew Slocum: (49:56):

<laugh>. It’s a six sigma thing, you know, in

Joshua Brackett: (50:00):

The day it’s go. Yeah. So these other champions that really want to tackle the problems. Um, and I think that’s what it takes, you know, to, to, to make a difference in our industry is find those champions, those people that are passionate. Oh yeah. Um, and really push, push it. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (50:18):

Well, yeah. Great. I, I’ve got some ideas there. We can, we can take offline, um, some of the stuff we’re trying to come out with as well. Um, but let’s, uh, I, I would love to have both of you on again, uh, maybe in six months, nine months, uh, to kind of just check in to see where everything’s at. Cuz I think there’s a lot happening right now. And, um, yeah, really looking forward to kind of the, the future of fire protection. So

Joshua Brackett: (50:44):

Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely really

Drew Slocum: (50:47):

Excited about it. So I, I do a little thing at the end and, uh, I’m, I’m sure you’re aware, but it’s a, it’s called a quick response round. Uh, so I got a few questions here just to kinda end it off and then we’ll, we’ll, we’ll get outta here. Um, perfect. Back to your, uh, point about liking champion, uh, Lindsay, what, what’s a sustainability champion? Uh, you know, it’s on your LinkedIn profile, um, yeah. What is a sustainability champion, and then what is that versus a sustainability Evangelist? Evangelist, sorry, evangelist.

Lindsey Brackett: (51:25):

Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, and an evangelist, I, I don’t know that there’s a, I can’t, I can’t find a discernible difference, but for, you know, for me, it all started back when Ashe put out the initiative to cut BTUs and non FTEs. And I thought, you know what, um, 50% of an operating expense up to 50% is on energy, right? And, and then maybe up to 25% is on staffing labor cost. And so it made sense, if we could, if we could cut up to, you know, of that, that bigger piece of the pie that would make the bigger difference. And I really grabbed onto that idea. And I love the idea of sustainability and where it’s going. It’s not just about energy consumption anymore. Josh and I are, um, <inaudible> faculty for the sustainability initiatives. And it’s something that we’re very passionate about in addition to education and training. And it’s really, it goes back to that idea though, of, you know, if, if we need to reduce cost and force, then why would we not focus on, um, utility cost as opposed to staffing? I mean, we’re, we’re raised raise within staffing and healthcare especially. So, um, I think that’s, that’s really where it started for us. And it, a champion is just getting the information out there. You know, these are the ways that you can, um, have no cost or low cost energy savings. And by the way, you get to keep your staff <laugh>.

Drew Slocum: (52:55):

That’s great. I gotta add,

Joshua Brackett: (52:56):

I have to add to that. So we have to call out Kara Brooks with Ashe. Um, she’s phenomenal and leads all of the, uh, what’s called the Energy to care programs, uh, for Ashe. So if you’re interested in learning more, you can go to Energy to care.org.

Drew Slocum: (53:13):

Okay, great. Yeah, I’ll, I’ll toss that in the notes, uh, as well. Um, uh, little random question. You guys are, uh, outside of Little Rock, you work in Little Rock, is that where you’re, you’re at, right?

Lindsey Brackett: (53:28):

Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (53:28):

Yeah. Yes. So, uh, little Rock, I don’t know if you know, is the, uh, home of the cheese dog. What, what are your thoughts about cheese dogs?

Lindsey Brackett: (53:35):

We are, you know, I don’t know, I don’t know if you’ve ever watched Birdie Rock <laugh>.

Drew Slocum: (53:40):

I have, yes. Rock.

Lindsey Brackett: (53:41):

Something called the, the Cheesy Blaster by Meat Cat. And so <laugh>,

Joshua Brackett: (53:47):

That’s one of the, you gotta, you gotta do it now.

Drew Slocum: (53:49):

What is it?

Lindsey Brackett: (53:51):

Yeah, it’s, uh, it’s the, uh, the cheesy blaster where you take a hot dog and you wrap it up in a, like you pull or you, no, you take a, a hot dog and you put in some jack cheese, you fold it up into a pizza,

Joshua Brackett: (54:02):

And then you got cheesy blaster, <laugh>

Lindsey Brackett: (54:05):

<laugh>, and then, and then Meat Cat on 30 Rock meat cat, uh, like rides off to the sunset on his skateboard. So, you know, we’re, we are, we are Oklahoma people, by the way. So in, in Oklahoma people are big fans of, uh, the Coney Dog. Yeah, yeah. And Chili Cheese dog.

Joshua Brackett: (54:22):

Um, so you know what I’m, I’m gonna say I haven’t had, what is it called, cheese Dog? Is that what you said?

Drew Slocum: (54:27):

Oh, it’s just cheese dog. It, you know, uh, cheese, we,

Joshua Brackett: (54:29):

I haven’t had a cheese dog in Arkansas, but I’m gonna tell you I love it. I’m standing by it. I don’t

Lindsey Brackett: (54:35):

Know. I am suspicious.

Drew Slocum: (54:39):

It’s, it’s cheese inside the hotdog, so, uh, yeah.

Lindsey Brackett: (54:43):

Oh, okay. So

Joshua Brackett: (54:43):

Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely love it.

Lindsey Brackett: (54:45):

Hands down. That’s like, that’s like almost a cheesy blaster, you know, I have the jack cheese inside the hot dog.

Drew Slocum: (54:49):

I’m gonna have to watch the 30 Rock now.

Joshua Brackett: (54:51):

<laugh>, you gotta watch that 30. Yeah, you look up, look up Cheesy blasters from, uh, 30 Rock <laugh>. It’s one of our

Drew Slocum: (54:57):

Favorite.

Joshua Brackett: (54:57):

But you’re talking to two Health Nuts here too, by the way. Yeah. So for us to, like Cheese Dogs is, I mean, that’s off the charts.

Lindsey Brackett: (55:05):

Yeah. We don’t, uh, we don’t eat, uh, much cheese or hardly any hot dogs, but, uh, you know,

Joshua Brackett: (55:12):

Oh

Drew Slocum: (55:12):

Boy. And that, I think that’s a new video, what we got coming up, right, <laugh>,

Joshua Brackett: (55:17):

That’s it right there. The

Lindsey Brackett: (55:18):

Hot Dog Cheese Cheesedog Challenge.

Joshua Brackett: (55:20):

So we do know that, I do know that Ashe’s gonna issue a challenge for me. Um, you know, we’re working on this, uh, this YouTube channel, and Chad Bebe with Ashe has said he’s gonna issue some, some sort of challenge to reach a thousand subscribers on the YouTube channel by the end of the year. And, uh, whatever he issues I’m gonna do.

Drew Slocum: (55:40):

Oh, you’re, you’ll get that. You’ll, you’ll easily get that. I, I know, I know for a fact.

Lindsey Brackett: (55:46):

So for every new subscriber, you need to eat a Cheesed Dog

Drew Slocum: (55:48):

<laugh>

Lindsey Brackett: (55:51):

While, while running a fire truck.

Drew Slocum: (55:53):

Oh, that’s funny. Well, all my questions don’t live up to that. So let’s, uh, <laugh>, let’s get outta here. On that note, uh, I guess tell everybody where we can find you, uh, contact info website. I’ll, I’ll put it in the notes as well, but, um

Joshua Brackett: (56:08):

Sure, sure. Um, so our website is, uh, legacy fm.com, and you can reach, uh, me, uh, at j Bracket, B r a c k e t t@legacy-fm.com andLindsey@lbracketlegacy-fm.com. And, um, if you guys reach out to us, I mean, we’re, we’re very open to, to sharing cell phones and all of that. So we, we just, we live, eat, and breathe all of this

Lindsey Brackett: (56:40):

And it, and it means the world to us that, you know, connecting with people on social net on our social networks. Oh yeah. This is, this is new for us. So, I mean, we’ve, we’ve started with LinkedIn and we’ve moved over, you know, to Facebook. We’re dipping our tone to Instagram. Obviously you, YouTube, um, it it really, it really does mean the world to us to see a following and people engaged because it’s not about us, it’s about the community. And we’re looking to start meaningful conversations, dialogue around these issues. So please connect with us on, on LinkedIn or any other social media network, us on YouTube. Leave your comments. We would love, love to hear from you.

Drew Slocum: (57:20):

Yeah, I’m excited to see this YouTube stuff. It’s, it’s, it’s gonna be great.

Lindsey Brackett: (57:25):

We’re really, it’s gonna be epic. <laugh>

Drew Slocum: (57:27):

<laugh>. Well, again, I appreciate you both coming on. Um, and sorry for, you know, audio issues. It’s always, uh, it’s always something these days, right? <laugh>,

Joshua Brackett: (57:39):

It’s some, it’s all right. We, we worked through it and, uh, good to go with it. Yeah.

Drew Slocum: (57:44):

Yeah. I appreciate it. Well, um, have a, have a great evening and, um, we’ll be in touch soon.

Joshua Brackett: (57:50):

Perfect.

Drew Slocum: (57:53):

This has been episode 26 of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. I want to thank Josh and Lindsey bracket again for taking some time this evening to, uh, chat, chat with, uh, us on, on, uh, different things in healthcare facility management. Um, a lot of great insight they have in fire protection. They’re heavily involved in the, in the social media side of things and giving back with training. So, uh, really interested to see where they’re going with Legacy FM and beyond. So hope you enjoyed the podcast and, uh, make sure to, uh, give us some feedback. Um, like and subscribe. Talk to you soon.